Wednesday, April 05, 2006

You Can't Fix Stupid

Every once in awhile I read a letter to the Editor that I can really identify with. Click on the title to read it.

The other day on a local talk radio show, I actually heard someone suggest that all people who are here illegally should be locked up in jail.

Say What?

That makes sense. Lets focus all our law enforcement on locking people up who aren't likely to break laws that actually injure other people. Lets forget that we are all human people. Let's forget that the majority of people who come here illegally are only trying to make a better life for themselves.

I think everyone who thinks like that caller should be gathered up and sent to live in mexico or peru for a couple of weeks.

I don't have a fix-it-all solution, but there has to be something better than what we have now. I hope that whatever it is, happens soon.

13 comments:

Sunshine said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
wordsfromhome said...

Sunshine,
I can respect your thinking that people should not enter this country illegally. But it is so difficult to get here legally that you have to have a PHD in a field critical to the government or medical research to get a work visa. So people, a portion of them sharing your religious beliefs find other ways to get here, and being my brother's keeper, I find it a moral imperative to help.
As for paying taxes, most of them do, but they have no legal status (their documents are not their own) and so the social security taxes they pay will never benefit them, but they will benefit you, because they all go into the common system. Medicaid does not pay their emergency room bills, the hospitals write them off and we all pay in higher insurance rates or hospital bills. But if they could get legal and become qualified for a little better job, they would have a better chance of being insured at some time.

We all have had (at least most of us) periods of time as adults that we depended on the social system, be it medicaid or food stamps or even earned income credit, or help from Dad and Mom.

The illegals do not get any of that and are more vulnerable to povery and disease than anyone else in our society. On top of this, they quite often are helping their relative who could not get here. I do not know any more hard working or deserving people than the hispanics that I now know and call my friends. I pray for their opportunity to become documented and take a place in this society that allows them to progress and help others, as I know they will because their hearts are full of love.

There is a lot of rhetoric flying around by a lot of people who talk about illegal immigrants, but they dont' really know anything except what they hear on TV or read in the news. Make friends with a few hispanics and you will learn to love them.

Have you ever read the poem that is enscribed on the Statue of Liberty? Think about that. Immigration law is much different that it was 50 or 100 years ago, and it is not so easy to be "legal."

Allie said...

Sunshine, I apologize for deleting your post. It had names and places (which I don't want on my blog).

Here is the edited version of Sunshine's comment...

Allie, Thanks so much for letting us stay with you this weekend. It was a blast and we appreciate the food and the housing and the good time we had with you and your wonderful family.

I just have to respond to this post on your blog. I know that we share differing political opinions and I am fine with that. That is what makes America so great. I do find this immigration topic interesting. It definitely has the country divided. I, like you, do not agree with the caller that you stated. I think that us feeding them and housing, and clothing them is a horrible idea, BUT what part of illegal is hard understand???? They are here against our laws. They are breaking the law, and where there is a law, there is a punishment affixed. What should be the punishment? - send them back to Mexico or Iran, or wherever they came from.

Now, what you said is very true. Would I want to live like some of those people do in Mexico and Peru?? Would I want to live like those people in Iraq?? No, and I believe that is why we are doing what we are doing in Iraq. We are freeing those people who were under a dictatorship. If they have a democracy like we do and enjoy the same great freedoms and economic success as we do, then they won’t want to move to the USA. A great example of this is Japan. Look at the state of affairs in Japan before WWII. Now look at there current state of affairs, it is a booming economy and people don’t want to move to the USA anymore. Looking at it spiritually, the Gospel was opened up to those people. They were under a dictatorship and now they have a democracy. Will the same thing happen in Iraq, time will tell.

Going back to the original point, I don’t have all the answers for immigration either. But just letting people into our country without permission is illegal. Anyway you look at it. If it is illegal, then it should not be allowed. Illegal is not a hard word to understand. I also have to disagree with you in part. Yes most people who come into our country are looking to support their families and live good lives, but the majority of the prisoners in Idaho, something like 68%, are illegal immigrants. And I would major that the trend holds true in Utah as well.

Another gripe I have with illegal immigration is the fact that they get Medicaid! It said on the form that you don’t have to be a legal resident of the U.S. to get Medicaid help from the Gov’t. We originally got denied Medicaid and we reapplied to see if we get it this time. But some bum Mexican comes in and gets help from the government and they aren’t even paying taxes. There I something wrong with that and that makes me really mad. As soon as we find out they are illegal (i.e. dong something wrong, breaking the law, not living by the rules), shouldn’t there be a punishment for that? I am not seeing the picture??? How can these non-tax paying, illegal, people get help form the government, and we can’t? Maybe it is just me, but that makes me a little upset.

I will say it again, I don’t care that we share differing view points. I think it is a good thing and our entire country was based upon that fact. I am not like one brother and others and don’t get mad at you or your mister, or any other democrat for that matter, but I just like to share my viewpoints as well and like to discuss them with others.
I love you guys and we had such a fun weekend down there. It was such a nice break away from school. I loved it! Hopefully one day I will be able to fix your family’s teeth one day. That is my hope anyway!!!!! Thanks again for a great weekend.

drzoomin

6:51 PM

Allie said...

Sunshine,
I like debating and discussing things too, so I am glad that it doesn't upset you to talk to people who may or may not agree with everything you say. :)

Our family had a lot of fun during your visit. You are welcome to stay with us anytime.

As to your views on the immigration issue... Have you ever sped in your car? That's breaking the law. Maybe you should report yourself every time you do so. Because you are breaking the law. Does that make you "illegal".

It's all semantics, but people who are undocumented did ONE thing that was illegal. That doesn't define them.

I also find it interesting that more than just the one brother gets mad about my "different" views (although I think that one brother and I have come to an understanding, I could be wrong...). I find it kind of amusing. He he he....

I think a lot of people have a knee jerk reaction (like wordsfromhome said) to things they hear on the news, and it is easy to disassociate oneself from "the illegals". As with a lot of issues.... Once you know the people you are talking about, your views often change because you find out that they are real people, with struggles, and happiness, and new babies, just like the rest of us.

Thank you for your comments.

Sunshine said...

I agree with what you have said, mostly.

I know what is written on the statue of liberty and I agree that we have different immigration laws now than 50 to 100 years ago. But, we also live in a totally different worldwide society. When that was written, we didn’t have to worry about terrorist attacks on the United States. We do now, so we have to be careful about who we allow to enter into in this nation. Granted, should a PhD be required to get into the United States? Heavens no, and I totally agree that it should be easier to get “legal.” So…instead of just letting people into our country as they please, we should change the laws to make it easier for them to get in. But I emphatically disagree with just letting them in, whoever wants to come. We should allow them to come, but we must make it easier for them to come.

I appreciated your point on speeding. It is a good point to bring up. And I must admit that I try very hard to drive the speed limit and do so about 98% of the time. I try my very best to obey the laws of the land in the country in which I am appointed. I know some people who come to America have a sincere desire to earn money and support their families. I am not concerned with these individuals. I am concerned with the other half of the people who come to America and cause havoc and who have no right being here. For these good persons, it doesn’t define who they are, you are right. But if they are here illegally, according to church standards, they cannot get baptized, or they cannot enter the temple or carry a valid temple recommend. Why, because they know they are breaking the law. Just as a person who is on probation cannot get baptized until he is off his probation cannot get baptized, because he must pay for breaking the law.

Another good point that was brought up. You are right, I don’t have that many Hispanic friends. I never really have. Do I think that they are bad people. Of course not. Yall of all people have set an excellent example of love and charity for me. I look at what you have done and it is really neat. I know that they are real humans and have trials and tribulations, just as I do. I am not oblivious to such imaginations, but it is these people I am not concerned with. If everyone who came into this country were like that, then we could adopt the way it was 50 to 100 years ago and we could truly embrace what is written on the statue of liberty. Sadly, not all people come into this country with such high morals. And it is these kind of people that we should beware of. That is why we should know who is entering and leaving this country, because we live in such a polluted world.

So what should we do? We should simply make it easier for persons wanting to enter ths great country. Again, if they could maybe have a democracy and live in a market system where they have chances to not only survive, but a chance to thrive, then maybe, just maybe they would not want to come to America.

Sorry about posting names and places and such. I understand, because we live in a sick and perverted society. We have enough troubles keeping our own under control, we should not have to worry about about people entering this nation who the same desires.

Sunshine

Sunshine said...

I don't know if this was published or not.

I agree with what you have said, mostly.

I know what is written on the statue of liberty and I agree that we have different immigration laws now than 50 to 100 years ago. But, we also live in a totally different worldwide society. When that was written, we didn’t have to worry about terrorist attacks on the United States. We do now, so we have to be careful about who we allow to enter into in this nation. Granted, should a PhD be required to get into the United States? Heavens no, and I totally agree that it should be easier to get “legal.” So…instead of just letting people into our country as they please, we should change the laws to make it easier for them to get in. But I emphatically disagree with just letting them in, whoever wants to come. We should allow them to come, but we must make it easier for them to come.

I appreciated your point on speeding. It is a good point to bring up. And I must admit that I try very hard to drive the speed limit and do so about 98% of the time. I try my very best to obey the laws of the land in the country in which I am appointed. I know some people who come to America have a sincere desire to earn money and support their families. I am not concerned with these individuals. I am concerned with the other half of the people who come to America and cause havoc and who have no right being here. For these good persons, it doesn’t define who they are, you are right. But if they are here illegally, according to church standards, they cannot get baptized, or they cannot enter the temple or carry a valid temple recommend. Why, because they know they are breaking the law. Just as a person who is on probation cannot get baptized until he is off his probation cannot get baptized, because he must pay for breaking the law.

Another good point that was brought up. You are right, I don’t have that many Hispanic friends. I never really have. Do I think that they are bad people. Of course not. Yall of all people have set an excellent example of love and charity for me. I look at what you have done and it is really neat. I know that they are real humans and have trials and tribulations, just as I do. I am not oblivious to such imaginations, but it is these people I am not concerned with. If everyone who came into this country were like that, then we could adopt the way it was 50 to 100 years ago and we could truly embrace what is written on the statue of liberty. Sadly, not all people come into this country with such high morals. And it is these kind of people that we should beware of. That is why we should know who is entering and leaving this country, because we live in such a polluted world.

So what should we do? We should simply make it easier for persons wanting to enter ths great country. Again, if they could maybe have a democracy and live in a market system where they have chances to not only survive, but a chance to thrive, then maybe, just maybe they would not want to come to America.

Sorry for posting names and places and such. I totally understand that we live in a sick and perverted society. we have enough trouble keeping our own under control, we should not have to worry about those seeking to enter this country that share similar desires.


Sunshine

edwardvanroberts said...

I certainly have mixed feelings about this topic. For those who think that we should "build a wall," whether it be a physical or political wall, haven't really thought too much about immigration reform. As Sunshine pointed out, there really isn't a cut and dry, black and white solution. My point of this comment isn't to propose a solution, only to add some points to consider.

Everyone does benefit from having illegal immigrants in the country. They take jobs that normal Americans won't work. They work for minimum wage when American's work. They work hard and even take two or more jobs just so they can live - without benefits, insurance, and respect. And as wordsfromhome said, they add to our social security without taking from it.

If we were to all of the sudden say, "Hey, let's get all of the illegals out of the country," there would not be enough law enforcement to take care of the task. Even if there were, what about the other "illegal" people that would get away with different things, such as drug lords, gangs, and even people speeding! All attention would be on this huge task of getting all of the law-abiding people who broke the law once.

Multiple people have said that the United States is God's country and had "been appointed" to be the leader of the free world. Why don't we allow these people to come here so we can spread our freedom to them?

The people who come here come for a better life and more opportunities. That is all they want. If they are here and obeying the law, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to work here. There should be a better way to get some type of guest worker status.

Again, I do not propose solutions, only things to think about. I hope I have done that.

eddie

costco shopper said...

Sunshine, you may wish to speak to your father or some other church figure and inquire about temple recommends, baptisms and worthiness standards for those who have inadequate documentation. The practice of proselyting, baptizing and sealing in the temple those who are undocumented I know second handedly was affirmed by Pres. Spencer W. Kimball to a mission president in the 70's in one of the border states of the US. The mission was doing very well teaching and converting agricultural workers. The law of the land, if the US House had its way, would make people like that mission president, yours truly, and a number of others including the Archbishop of Los Angeles felons for aiding and abetting the illegals. Ask me where I would stand if such a travesty became law? A resounding "NO" to King George and his stamp tax! I would energetically have thrown the tea into the harbor and would do so if something like this, which is so cruel and
un-American were allowed to stand. Idaho had a law once, only repealed in the last 20 years that disenfranchised Mormons from voting. Did you know that was the law of the land in Idaho? As long as I am on a soap box, what about Lilburn Boggs and his extermination order (became state law) for all Mormons if they did not leave Far West and Independence immediately. Please don't talk to me about the superiority or especially the infallibility of law when so many of the hopes and dreams of so many good people will be closed behind the iron bars of internment camps and prisons awaiting deportation. The rounding up and sending back to their own countries has been advocated by a number of house members and senators, even Hatch in Utah.

Sunshine said...

In speaking about baptism of illegal residents of our country. I am just relating what was told to me in the mission. Maybe the church has a different position on this issue since I have served. I guess I wouldn’t really know. But in 2003 I interviewed a great man of Hispanic origin. He told me in the interview that he was here “illegally” and did not have correct documentation. I told him I would go through the proper lines to get this settled and did what everyone else should do and ask their superior, i.e. my mission president. He said that he cannot get baptized unless he is a legal resident of the United States. Furthermore, he went on to tell me what I mentioned previously. My mission president said he had a question about that and asked the Area President, and that was the answer he received. So it was just not my mission president’s opinion, maybe it was the area president’s, but that is what was told to me. Maybe the church has changed in three years, I don’t know. I am just saying what I know. Is that right, is that correct, I don’t know and it is up to them decide that and I will always follow the leaders of the church. They know the way, and I will follow. As far as what President Kimball said in the 70’s I know not of, but I know that during the years of 2002-2005 when my mission president was in Georgia, not one person who was here illegally was baptized in the Georgia Macon Mission. Again, coscoshopper, you have been in much higher positions in this church than I have, so you probably know more about this than I do. I am not questioning what you have said, I just stated what I have learned, I guess I should have made that more clear in my previous post.

I agree with what edwardvanroberts said, it would kill the economy if we were to gather up all the illegals and send them back wherever they came from. I am not saying we should do that. I agree with him again and I quote, “There should be a better way to get some type of guest worker status.” That is what I am saying. But we should now allow whoever and whomever to just come into our country whenever they please. I am definitely not advocating sending everyone back to their countries. It is just not feasible and wise. I am just saying that those people should be documented, just like you and I are documented. That is what I am trying to get across.

Like I said earlier as well. I am not worried about the people who come here who are great people who want to support their families and loved ones. I say bring them all if they are like that. Sadly enough, some people who come here are not like that. There are some that come and become a detriment to our society, y’all cannot deny that. These are the people that we should be weary of. You cannot have one without the other. For every one person that has sincere intentions of raising a family, at least one comes across our borders with inverse desires.

Edwardvanroberts, you say, “Why don't we allow these people to come here so we can spread our freedom to them?” I say, why can’t they have the freedoms we enjoy, in their very own country. I will tell you, because they are not allowed to because of hateful, deceitful, perverse men who lead their countries, aka Sadam Heusane (sp?). Some can’t even leave their countries to come to America, even if we allowed them at will. Is that right, should we, who enjoy these freedoms, allow such things to happen? That is a personal opinion I guess and it is left up to us to decide that. As one watches the news, it is clearly evident that the country is divided. And even I am still undecided on what our obligations are as truly the leader of the free world.

Sunshine

Allie said...

dvdu
Sunshine,
I think we mostly agree. I hope you haven't felt attacked. :) It's nice to be able to talk about things like this. Sharing different ideas is how we learn and grow.

I agree with you that people should not be allowed to come into this country illegally. The way things are set up right now, it is impossible to keep someone who really wants to come here, from coming.

I think you agreed that the current immigration policy needs to change. I think a plan needs to be in place to allow people to come here if they want to (as a guest worker) and then as long as they are obeying the laws and have employment (at least one member of a family), they should be able to apply for residency. Applications shouldn't take 6 or 7 years to process (which, from my limited understanding is about what they are).

That would be better for everyone. The borders would also need to be tightened up significantly to prevent people from coming here illegally (I think fewer people would be trying to come illegally if it weren't so impossible for them to come legally).

I also am not aware of a huge influx of undocumented immigrants from the middle east. I think when you hear about "illegal immigration" people are referring to people from mexico mainly.

Sunshine said...

No, I haven’t felt attacked and I really enjoy discussing these kind of controversial issues that are brought up as long as people don’t get upset or mad at each other. Sometimes when I listen to talk to radio to and from school, the caller or the host gets so angry, that it completely ruins what they are trying to get across.

I could not have agreed more with you what you said. I feel that there does need to be a better plan in place so that people who want a better life can achieve that goal. I completely agree that the borders need to be tightened up.

I guess I am using the middle easterners as a horrible example of people who could come to America and blow up some buildings, as opposed to individuals who come seeking a better life. You maybe right, there probably is not a huge influx of these people coming to America that I am aware of. But there are many that come from Mexico who don’t have such high ambitions in life. To these individuals, ship them home so they can cause havoc in their own country!

Again, I really enjoy talking about controversial topics, mainly because I am not so set in my ways. I like to hear what other people think, especially those of opposing view points. So, that is why I can come to yall, because you are my family and I love you guys. Just because we share differing view points, doesn’t mean I love you any less.

Sunshine

costco shopper said...

Sunshine, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton and others did nothing about the problem of immigration and because neither they or congress has done anything about this we find ourselves invaded by 11 million plus folks from Latin America. Why has the state department been granting tourist or student visas to all of the illegals who came by airplane as opposed to walking across the the US Mexican border? They, the govt. knows what has been going on. Makes no sense. The State department lets them in, they come here, are harrassed and sometimes sent back or live in the fear of being sent back. go figure.

It is interesting your mission president and an area authority would refuse giving the ordinances of the gospel to the undocumented. I personally baptized undocumented Hispanics in my own ward and issued recommends to many more during the very years you were in the South. Permission came from the First Quorum of the Seventy through our Stake President.

A friend of mine is now a mission president in a Spanish speaking state-side mission. 60% of the folks they baptize are undocumented. His father was the mission president I had spoken about earlier and his actions were approved by President Kimball. Suggests to me there was a disconnect between the leaders in your area and Salt Lake. Ask your father what they do in his stake. Certainly they have agricultural workers being taught.

On a side note, I am hoping I can walk in the march on Sunday from the City Bldg to the capitol with Mayor Rocky, Tony Yapias and a number of mis amigos, hermanos y hermanas, todos los hijos de Lehi.

Tenga buen dia!

costco shopper said...

Of course most any statement by the Prophet or the Brethren can be interpreted in different ways but I rejoiced and found assurance in the words of President Hinckley from the Priesthood Session only recently passed: "Racial strife still lifts its ugly head. I am advised that even right here among us there is some of this. I cannot understand how it can be. It seemed to me that we all rejoiced in the 1978 revelation given President Kimball. I was there in the temple at the time that that happened. There was no doubt in my mind or in the minds of my associates that what was revealed was the mind and the will of the Lord.
Now I am told that racial slurs and denigrating remarks are sometimes heard among us. I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ. How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?"

I believe this statement is clear upon the subject cultural and race relations.